Transcript: CrossTalk | Purging Trumpists? (I trust these four men more than I trust Pelosi and McConnell)

We are told the DOJ’s Capitol riot investigation is one of the largest in American history. The FBI has made it clear it will not leave one stone unturned seeking to prosecute what it calls ‘domestic terrorists’. All of us want answers surrounding this horrific event. But is this also a purging of Trump loyalists?

CrossTalking with William Binney, Ray McGovern, and Don DeBar.

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00:00 [Music] 00:06 [Music] 00:17 hello and welcome to crosstalk where all 00:19 things are considered i’m peter lavelle 00:21 we are told the doj’s capital riot 00:24 investigation is one of the largest 00:26 in american history the fbi has made it 00:28 clear it will not leave one stone 00:30 unturned 00:31 seeking to prosecute what it calls 00:33 domestic terrorists 00:34 all of us want answers surrounding this 00:36 horrific event 00:38 but is this also a purging of trump 00:42 loyalists 00:47 [Music] 00:50 cross talking the capital riot i’m 00:52 joined by my guest william beanie in 00:54 baltimore he’s a former intelligence 00:56 officer with the nsa 00:58 in raleigh we have ray mcgovern he is a 01:00 former cia analyst 01:02 and in ossining we cross to don dubar he 01:04 is the senior producer 01:06 at cpr news all right gentlemen 01:08 crosstalk rules in effect that means you 01:09 can jump in anytime you want 01:11 and i always appreciate it william let 01:12 me go to you first i was going to the 01:14 pages of the american conservative and 01:16 this article 01:17 by james bovard came up will fbi 01:20 chats send conservatives to prison i 01:24 think that is probably the most direct 01:26 way 01:26 of starting out this program because it 01:29 looks exactly like that to me 01:31 considering it’s been months now since 01:33 the riot on capitol hill 01:34 we have preciously little information 01:36 and we have the head of the fbi 01:39 seemingly to go out of his way to please 01:42 congress 01:42 in their hearings about those horrific 01:45 events so 01:46 what about this title will the fbi chats 01:49 send conservatives to prison your 01:51 thoughts go ahead 01:53 i think they will attempt to do anything 01:55 they can to uh 01:56 to discredit anybody involved in the 01:58 trump campaign and the trump supporters 02:01 and i think that’s their objective 02:03 they’ve been trying to label all the 02:05 all the uh trump trump people all 75 02:07 million of them 02:08 as terrorists and and that’s the way 02:11 that that’s the way out that’s why they 02:12 had that 02:13 section 1021 input into the um 02:16 the uh the authorization act for the 02:19 military authorization act uh 02:21 back in 2012. that was one that 02:23 basically stated uh 02:25 the the same thing that a special order 02:27 48 did with the nazis issued in 1933 02:30 that said 02:31 you know the they had the authority to 02:33 imprison anybody with the military 02:36 and do that and keep them indefinitely 02:37 with no due process whatsoever 02:40 that’s exactly what exactly what special 02:42 order 48 was and eventually they used 02:44 the 02:44 nazis used that to get rid of all their 02:46 political enemies and anybody else they 02:48 didn’t like and that’s what’s really 02:50 looking like it’s going to happen here 02:52 ray why is this 02:53 investigation taking so long the fbi 02:56 the doj have asked for more time it 02:59 sounds like they’re trying to 03:00 can looking for more dots to connect 03:03 because 03:04 they don’t have enough dots now to make 03:05 their case so they need to keep the 03:08 they have a much larger dragnet as it 03:11 were 03:11 that’s what it appears to me because 03:13 they’re they’re they’re react their 03:14 answers to questions why you need more 03:16 time don’t make any sense to me so i’m 03:18 going to have to 03:19 come up with my own suppositions go 03:21 ahead bray your thoughts 03:23 well peter the fbi is unrestrained 03:28 it’s unsupervised it has a record of 03:31 deceiving the american people 03:33 mostly for the last four or five years 03:36 for the current 03:36 phase and you know when you get people 03:40 like senator grassley 03:44 of the judiciary committee in the senate 03:47 who is supposed to be 03:48 overseeing the fbi and the department of 03:51 justice 03:52 um when he comes out in a tweet 03:56 no less and says well 03:59 it’s the department of just us 04:04 now i don’t know if he got that from 04:05 bill benny but bill benny’s been saying 04:07 that for three years or more okay 04:09 the department of just us and what did 04:12 grassley mean 04:13 he meant simply that with the fbi 04:16 violating the law 04:18 kleinsmith the lawyer 04:21 fabricating uh information to justify 04:25 a foreign intelligence court warrant 04:28 uh and comey lying 04:32 saying that the steel document the steel 04:35 dossier so to speak was verified that’s 04:38 what he told the judge 04:40 on the same day he told the national 04:42 intelligence director 04:44 no no still still stuff has was not 04:47 never been we can’t corroborate it same 04:49 day 04:50 we have written documents for two so 04:52 what i’m saying here 04:54 is that if you need further proof that 04:57 the fbi 04:58 is unsupervised and can do whatever it

05:00 wants 05:01 here’s the he’s now ranking chair of the 05:04 judiciary committee 05:05 in the senate used to be the chairman 05:08 and he said well looks like the 05:10 department of justice is really the 05:12 department of 05:13 just us and i’m reminded of that 05:15 wonderful uh 05:16 dizzy were where they say you know um 05:19 it’s a big club i just realized that 05:23 you’re not in it that’s exactly right 05:25 you know john 05:26 this also this investigation into the 05:29 riot on the capitol on january 6 05:31 this is expanded into the military i i 05:33 find if someone would have told me a few 05:35 months ago 05:36 that they’d be purging the military for 05:38 suspicious thoughts bad 05:40 thoughts okay um and obviously it only 05:43 goes in one direction here 05:45 i mean this this is a um a drag net as 05:48 it were here and it seems to be 05:50 all all branches of government are 05:52 pursuing it here 05:54 and and just to go back to to uh what 05:56 bill had to say 05:57 because about 75 million people voted 06:00 the wrong way 06:01 is this how we should interpret it go 06:03 ahead don 06:05 first of all the thing that enables this 06:08 the event quote unquote you know the 06:10 insurrection 06:11 whatever term that someone wants to 06:14 throw against the wall 06:15 to see what sticks what we’re talking 06:17 about is a couple of hundred people 06:20 that went through the capitol building 06:22 without authorization 06:23 was the capitol building when the joint 06:25 session apparently was guarded 06:27 uh less effectively than say the 06:30 football field at the super bowl for 06:32 sure 06:33 in terms of security because the fan 60 06:36 70 06:37 000 people could never overrun or have 06:39 it never overrun that yet 06:41 and they’re really except for the one 06:43 police officer and the woman that got 06:45 shot in the face 06:46 or the head or whatever murdered by the 06:48 police 06:50 no one was killed they didn’t burn the 06:52 building down there you know they 06:53 walked off with the you know odais and 06:56 they made a mess out of the place 06:58 for that the trillion-dollar military 07:01 that’s right the god knows how much 07:03 money we spend on intelligence agencies 07:06 and the fbi which i wouldn’t include in 07:08 that 07:09 all of them are being you know turned 07:10 inside out and re-exempt it reminds me 07:13 of 07:14 my concerns about our air defenses that 07:17 were supposed to protect us against an 07:19 attack by the soviet union for 50 years 07:22 that suddenly were you know easily 07:24 penetrated by a handful of knuckleheads 07:27 from the middle east 07:28 and a couple of jetliners and and yet 07:30 they wanted to 07:31 again just as in you know with the 07:33 patriot act in 07:34 september of 2001 you know they want to 07:37 do away with everyone’s 07:38 civil rights and human rights over this 07:40 and just one last thing 07:42 for the people on the left and liberals 07:44 who aren’t there but 07:45 uh who think that this is okay because 07:47 it’s being done to quote-unquote 07:49 trumpers 07:50 take a look at the cohento pro papers 07:52 take a look at the records from the 07:54 citizens committee 07:55 50 years ago last week that broke into 07:58 the fbi’s office in pennsylvania 08:00 what they found was out of 50 some odd 08:03 percent of the cases 08:05 that they handled at all at their budget 08:07 most were handled 08:08 were against political targets and only 08:11 two or three percent were against the 08:13 right most of them are against the left 08:15 and it will be that way 08:16 here also if you allow it to happen to 08:18 anyone 08:19 you know bill explain to us you have a 08:22 long career in this here 08:23 i simply can’t get my head around the 08:25 fact that 08:26 how many countless billions of dollars 08:29 are spent on surveillance on 08:30 intelligence on gathering information 08:33 how could this get how could this 08:34 possibly happen on the nation’s 08:37 capital i mean it doesn’t make any sense 08:39 i mean you know they’re guarding 08:41 buildings all around the world but they 08:43 couldn’t guard that one 08:44 and can you do you have an answer to 08:46 that because again 08:48 they they won’t they won’t give us a 08:49 straight answer on what happened 08:52 for something of its magnitude they’re 08:53 remarkably quiet except for the number 08:55 of investigations that they’re 08:57 pursuing and the number of people that 08:59 are in custody and the number that could 09:00 be 09:01 go ahead bill well it’s pretty to me it 09:04 seems pretty simple 09:05 they had some evidence that this was 09:07 being prepared in advance and they knew 09:09 about it in advance 09:11 and yet they did nothing to beef up 09:12 security or anything just be able to 09:14 deal with it as it happened so it meant 09:17 to me very simply put that they wanted 09:19 it to happen 09:20 why because that would allow them then 09:22 to discredit the entire trump campaign 09:25 and and uh and start to move to try to 09:28 classify them as terrorists and that’s 09:29 exactly what they’ve been doing 09:31 and yet most of them just went through 09:33 the white white uh the 09:35 capitol building taking pictures like 09:37 taurus yeah you know the ones 09:39 the ones who were doing it were very few 09:41 in number and they were the ones leading 09:43 the packing citing the 09:45 people to do other things and that when 09:46 you get people together in mass like 09:48 that sometimes that’s an easy thing to 09:49 get some people to do 09:51 and that’s fine that fundamentally was 09:53 their plan that’s right 09:55 right right weigh in on that because i 09:56 think that’s very important because 09:58 as it was just pointed out i mean they

10:00 were taking pictures to put on instagram 10:01 and facebook i mean 10:03 what kind of criminal element or or 10:06 criminal intent 10:07 does that i mean bill just hit the nail 10:09 on the head there i mean this look 10:10 it looked like a lot of tourists and 10:12 then it got out of hand a small number 10:14 of people 10:15 turned it into a riot but even as you 10:17 know i mean they had a guy that looked 10:18 like chewbacca i mean 10:20 it was this to fake us all out or 10:22 something go ahead ray 10:24 well you know i think we have to get out 10:26 of out from the trees and look at the 10:28 forest here 10:29 um why was this allowed to happen 10:34 uh who’s who was in charge 10:37 uh it was the speaker of the house 10:40 nancy pelosi and that fellow from 10:44 kentucky 10:46 the leader in the senate they’re the 10:48 ones 10:49 in charge of the capitol police 10:53 and they didn’t do anything so we have 10:55 to start looking there 10:56 now what is nancy pelosi saying now well 11:00 she’s 11:00 talking to hillary clinton 11:04 and she’s saying my god we have to have 11:07 a 9 11 investigation 11:09 clinton’s suggestion clinton says i’d 11:12 love to see 11:13 uh what poutine was telling trump on 11:16 the sixth of january okay 11:19 now you laugh i laugh even the new york 11:21 times has laughed at that 11:23 i think that’s the only russian thing 11:24 that they didn’t play but think about 11:26 the implications here 11:28 let’s just add this oliver stone was a 11:31 friend of mine 11:32 told me that during one recent session 11:35 with vladimir putin 11:37 pooching exasperated threw up his hands 11:40 and he says you know the russians are 11:41 being treated just like the jews were 11:43 in the 30s before world war ii end quote 11:47 whoa what does that mean that means 11:50 they’re being scapegoated they’ve been 11:52 blamed for everything 11:53 and what’s the implication of that well 11:56 if nancy pelosi 11:57 and hillary clinton are still running 11:59 the democratic party that’s right 12:01 when it all comes to push comes to shove 12:03 this spring when there are 12:04 demonstrations in the street 12:06 who’s going to be blamed for that well 12:08 it’s let’s begin with the hand 12:10 of lesbian pooching because all roads 12:12 lead to pooching 12:13 all right you’re going to have a major 12:14 part all right ray let me jump in here 12:16 gentlemen we’re going to go to a hard 12:17 break and after that hard break we’ll 12:18 continue our discussion on the capitol 12:20 hill right stay 12:21 with rt 12:27 [Music] 12:30 okay let’s go let’s go back to don here 12:32 you know don one of the things i find 12:33 very 12:34 distressing even disgusting is that if 12:38 you lie to the fbi 12:40 and and and that can include casual 12:42 yeses and casual no’s 12:44 um you can face a prison term but the 12:47 fbi can 12:48 lie to you all right in building their 12:51 case and 12:52 unlike what they’re being portrayed in 12:54 the media a lot of these trump 12:56 supporters are the most vulnerable in 12:58 society they make them into monsters 13:00 but these are a lot of these people are 13:02 are poor working 13:03 people and no and and many of them are 13:06 not very well educated because the 13:08 american educational system is awful 13:10 um and so you have the full power of the 13:13 state one of the largest investigations 13:15 in the country 13:16 and christopher way wants to you know 13:19 serve up something to congress and the 13:21 media 13:22 but you know if you if you have a if you 13:23 don’t answer in the way they want it 13:26 like for example 13:27 were you near the capitol well in their 13:29 mind near can mean something and the 13:31 person that’s being asked 13:33 can mean something else ben and they can 13:35 say no that’s not true 13:36 you lied to the fbi you’re on their hit 13:39 list okay 13:40 i mean it seems to me the fbi is that 13:42 they’re just showing 13:43 um their the veil has dropped they’re 13:45 showing really who they are 13:48 well first of all i mean that’s pretty 13:49 much what happened to to flynn today 13:51 general flint yeah in other words if 13:52 you’re a senior official you’re not 13:54 invulnerable and uh and they use this 13:58 you know they weaponize uh their 14:00 investigative tools 14:02 to be able it’s not uh prosecution in 14:05 the strict sense of it but rather 14:07 in the broad sense of it almost to the 14:09 to the level or even to the level 14:11 of persecution they they have weapons 14:13 that they can use 14:15 to take out their political allies they 14:17 they can retrofit basically onto some 14:20 statute 14:21 to justify criminalizing behavior that 14:23 is 14:24 really not criminal behavior you know 14:26 people were warning of this kind of 14:28 thing when the rico statutes were 14:30 passed and things like that but 14:32 practically speaking the everyday 14:34 business of the fbi 14:36 uses these tools constantly against 14:39 people 14:40 and and one of the problems that you 14:42 know you have to take a look at this 14:43 again in historical context 14:46 first of all the american public have 14:48 been thoroughly brainwashed about the 14:50 fbi 14:51 um you know you look at the the 14:53 untouchables to 14:55 the fbi uh time television these are the 14:58 you know the most upright 14:59 the best educated untouchable literally

15:03 uh you know public officials in the 15:06 business the 15:07 you know they cannot be corrupted and 15:09 yet it’s the most corrupt institution 15:11 perhaps 15:12 on the planet when you consider the 15:14 reach that uh 15:15 their corrupt behavior has and it to 15:18 where now you’re looking at 15:20 in essence the fbi has established 15:23 itself 15:24 or some people with control over the fbi 15:26 have used the fbi 15:27 to establish themselves as a power unto 15:30 itself 15:31 even over the government i mean what 15:33 what i think we 15:34 have seen with this episode 15:38 was a direct intervention by the fbi in 15:41 the outcome of the 2020 election 15:43 one of many that led to the outcome that 15:46 that we have seen 15:48 and what they’re doing now is clean up 15:49 work and preventative maintenance going 15:52 forward 15:53 where anyone who might first of all 15:55 prove that there was 15:56 wrongdoing with respect to the election 15:59 in 2020 16:00 and and and secondly look to prevent 16:02 that from happening in the future will 16:04 be taken out as political entities 16:06 by criminalizing them you know you know 16:08 let me go to bill here 16:10 that’s exactly where i wanted to go 16:11 because it seems to me that 16:13 we’re going down the path of 16:14 criminalizing dissent 16:16 and criminalizing having your own 16:18 opinion be 16:19 and also with this you know if we look 16:22 at hr1 16:23 we look at this investigation uh we look 16:26 at all of the shenanigans 16:27 associated with the russia gate hoax it 16:30 seems to me and 16:30 i’m going to make a big statement here 16:32 but i think we’re going in the direction 16:34 of 16:34 disenfranchising tens of millions of 16:36 people 16:37 you what do you say bill go ahead well 16:39 it’s not just i don’t think it’s just 16:41 that peter but 16:41 it’s also uh like i referred back to 16:45 nazi special order 48 that’s the kind of 16:48 thing they want to bring online and 16:49 start 16:50 using and i see this coming very very 16:52 clearly from what they’ve been doing 16:55 you know it’s not just it’s not just 16:58 targeting people for 16:59 for just to get them out of the way or 17:01 silence them or anything it’s also 17:02 you know doing other things like using i 17:05 mean i’m 17:06 quite cl confident that the fbi is 17:09 involved just like they were in 17:10 cointelpro against silencing 17:12 any kind of dissent internally in this 17:14 country and using any means they have 17:15 available 17:16 and that includes things like directed 17:18 energy weapons we here are 17:20 in my house are also picking up this 17:22 from uh from using uh 17:24 spectrum analyzes things of that we are 17:25 detecting these kinds of things being 17:27 directed at us 17:28 so this is nothing new and i’m i’m uh 17:31 these people 17:32 have not stopped at anything they’ll lie 17:34 in the court of law they 17:35 they fabricated evidence against us uh 17:37 whistleblowers from nsa 17:39 and and made up just outright lies about 17:42 us just 17:42 and got the court to buy into it because 17:45 what does the court know 17:46 they don’t know anything except what the 17:47 government tells them they have no way 17:49 of verifying or validating anything 17:50 they’re being told 17:51 and they’ve known for years and decades 17:53 in fact that the fbi’s lied to them 17:56 consistently 17:56 and yet they do nothing about it why 17:59 because they’re a part of it 18:00 and even even uh we heard reports over 18:03 here that judge roberts was telling the 18:05 rest of the members of the supreme court 18:07 not to hear the 18:08 the uh texas and other state complaints 18:11 against the 18:12 disenfranchising the votes during the 18:14 doing that by by having uh 18:16 pennsylvania and the other states uh 18:18 stuffed ballots into the box and 18:20 and uh violate their their even violate 18:23 their constitutions internally in the 18:24 states on 18:25 in terms of how to handle votes so i’m 18:27 in it the courts are involved in this 18:29 i mean all parts of our government are 18:31 corrupt now they’re all in 18:33 a part of it and each has to cover up 18:34 for the other or they all fall 18:36 you know you know ray i i guess the the 18:39 the 18:40 the lightning i was going to say the 18:42 silver lining but it’s not a silver 18:43 lining it’s just the opposite 18:45 is that we have big tech i don’t i want 18:47 to continue with my question that i had 18:48 for bill there i mean 18:49 disenfranchising people because with big 18:52 tech now 18:52 i mean almost all of us in one way or 18:54 another live through these different 18:56 platforms and all that 18:58 and and so i mean if you’re on the wrong 19:00 side of the divide and the fbi says so 19:02 and the courts won’t 19:04 intervene then they just disappear you 19:06 you’re just 19:07 gone okay i mean and i i that that’s 19:10 we’ve already seen 19:11 um uh individuals and groups of people 19:14 being marginalized and disappeared 19:16 already and now that with the in grand 19:19 investigation 19:20 the most extensive in american history 19:22 will be definitive 19:24 and they’ll that will be the trigger 19:26 that they will pull and then 19:28 then we see a good part of civil society 19:30 disappear 19:31 your thoughts ray well it’s very clear 19:35 that the fbi 19:36 is riding high okay so is the whole 19:39 national security state including the 19:41 cia nsa and the others 19:44 they’ve won a big a big deal here no 19:47 longer being investigated 19:49 i think that john durham the famous john 19:51 dorm investigation 19:53 is is over in other words the fbi will 19:56 not never be held accountable 19:58 i’m not sure exactly what merrick

20:00 garland is going to do as attorney 20:02 general but the signs tell me 20:04 that he’d just sweep it under the rug 20:06 and the fbi 20:08 who demonstrably lied now i’ll give you 20:11 his 20:12 more recent example comey we know 20:15 told the fisa court foreign intelligence 20:18 surveillance act 20:19 court on 12th of january 2017 20:23 the steele dossier was verified yep 20:26 on the same day we have the email he 20:29 sent 20:29 to the director of national intelligence 20:31 james clapper in which he said we cannot 20:34 we cannot work hard real hard but we 20:35 cannot corroborate what steel says 20:38 in his dossier well both of those things 20:41 cannot be correct and we know which one 20:43 is correct since the dossier has been 20:45 completely discredited so call me 20:48 lied to the court that’s a felony and 20:51 he’s going to get away with it 20:53 now that’s that’s the the core of the 20:56 question here because 20:58 if john durham is just allowed to go out 21:01 to pasture 21:03 even despite his uh his visage from 21:06 central casting you know that one one 21:09 picture he’s a hard guy well 21:11 he’s a hard guy right but when he’s told 21:12 to knock it off he knocks it off as has 21:15 been proved two times in the past with 21:16 respect to cia torture 21:19 uh it’s going to go away and then you 21:21 talk about power 21:22 the fbi and cia will be totally 21:24 empowered to do whatever they want 21:26 okay one more thing as uh 21:29 as bob mueller uh left the fbi he made a 21:32 big speech before a bunch of 21:34 intelligence people including retirement 21:36 people like me 21:37 and uh i had a chance to ask him a 21:39 course question i said mr mr mueller 21:41 do you have any legal qualms uh with the 21:45 the notion of a parallel construction 21:48 where you 21:48 illegally collect some with the help of 21:51 nsa 21:52 and then you use that with the local 21:54 police to say look this is information 21:56 you can use to catch this guy 21:58 don’t tell anybody where you got to go 21:59 tell the judge don’t tell the defense 22:01 don’t tell anybody 22:02 and you can get them do you have any 22:03 problem legal problems with that you 22:05 know what he said 22:06 he says mr mcgovern uh uh after 9 11 22:10 uh we were we had been given special 22:13 authorities 22:14 well give me a break special authorities 22:16 as far as i know the fourth amendment of 22:18 our constitution 22:19 still exists you can’t have special 22:21 authorities to violate that 22:23 but that’s what they use as bill knows 22:25 better than i 22:27 and they’re riding high right now and 22:28 they’re very much in in league with the 22:30 people 22:31 uh who invented all the structure gate 22:33 stuff and biden 22:35 unfortunately was one of those you know 22:38 don do you 22:38 it seems to me that they’re going to use 22:40 this the the findings of this uh 22:43 investigation 22:44 which will um who knows could turn into 22:46 some kind of show trial they’re going to 22:48 put all of these defendants on trial in 22:49 a stadium or something like that 22:51 because what they what they want to do 22:53 the direction they’re going into 22:55 they need a trial like that a such a 22:57 media event 22:58 to legitimize the national security 23:00 state control over everything 23:02 and you have big tech as i said earlier 23:04 they’ll be have their back right there 23:06 and it’ll be mission accomplished they 23:08 would have because they did they never 23:10 want 2016 to happen 23:12 again and that is not a defense of 23:14 donald trump coming from me 23:15 at all what i’m talking about is that 23:17 they will make sure the system will work 23:19 the way 23:20 they want it to because they the system 23:22 failed 23:23 them it didn’t fail the people it failed 23:25 the people in power go ahead don 23:28 i have to remember something at the very 23:30 beginning here we’re talking about 23:32 the national police force 23:35 essentially having all power accrued to 23:38 it or 23:38 run through it that is a per se 23:41 definition of a police state 23:43 and given the scope and magnitude of the 23:45 american state 23:47 both on the u.s territory and around the 23:50 world 23:51 it is the largest and scariest police 23:54 state 23:54 that has ever existed in human history 23:57 this is the context for the conversation 24:00 that we’re having now 24:01 while we’re discussing this great leap 24:04 forward 24:05 in acquiring additional power out of the 24:07 people that have been arrested already 24:09 in washington the hundreds 24:11 i’m gonna guess the same game that they 24:13 play with any criminal prosecution is a 24:15 foot 24:16 they’re scaring the hell out of most of 24:18 the people who are 24:19 innocent of everything to get them to 24:21 plead out 24:22 and testify against the people okay okay 24:25 gentlemen we’ve run out of time it looks 24:27 like we’re gonna have a police state 24:28 we’ll 24:28 have a smiley on it here many thanks to 24:30 my guests in baltimore raleigh and us 24:32 and thanks to our viewers for watching 24:34 us here at rt see you next time and 24:36 remember 24:36 crosstalk rules